Exclusive Interview With Union Home Minister Amit Shah: No More Tareekh Pe Tareekh, Now There Will Be Justice In Time

In Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government, Home Minister Amit Shah stands out for his boldness and effectiveness, clearly voicing and implementing his views in Parliament. He recently defended the replacement of the Indian Penal Code with the Bharatiya Nyaya Sanhita against criticism, using facts and logic.  Lokmat Media Editorial Director Rishi Darda and National Editor Harish Gupta met at Shah's New Delhi residence for an insightful discussion, focusing on the newly introduced laws and the prevailing political climate in India. The conversation, which spanned an hour, offered enlightening insights. Below are highlights from the first segment of the interview.

 Three criminal law bills have been passed in the Parliament. It is being called a game changer and a turning point in the law system of the country.

Instead of considering this as a game changer, I look at it as the beginning of a new era in the Indian justice system because for 150 years, our country followed the justice system created by the British. It was fine as long as the British rule existed. Their Parliament made laws, and we followed them. But even after gaining independence, we continued to follow the same laws that were created between 1860 and 1875, with the purpose of perpetuating the British regime. Those laws were not intended to provide justice to the people.

 What changes will they bring about?

It is essential to identify the gravest crime in any civilised society to formulate the process of justice. Whether we look at the current context or the context one and a half centuries ago, the most heinous crime was homicide. In the Indian Penal Code, Section 302 covered it. It was a priority at that time. In today's context, homicide is the biggest crime after atrocities on women and children. However, its sections were 302 and 367 in the Indian Penal Code. What was above that? Looting treasure, treason, damaging railway tracks, causing damage to railway property and misbehaving with government officials were the sections above them. For the first time, laws have been drafted with the spirit of our Constitution, ensuring equal justice to every person and protecting the rights granted by the Constitution. That is why, this era will be of transformative laws.

Litigations drag on for years, and it takes a lot of time to get justice. Does the solution to this also lie in the new laws?

 For the first time in 75 years after independence we will be working as per Indian Judicial System. Modi ji gave us a huge target: remove all signs of slavery before 2047 and bring in a new penal code that is based on our culture. This is just the beginning. The emphasis of the old laws was on imposing punishment, but the purpose of the new laws is to deliver justice. There are many concepts of the Indian judicial system. Many people have written about justice, from Narada to Yajnavalkya, from Kalpa to Kautilya. Justice was the base of their concept of the judicial system. Now, instead of focusing on punishment, penalties, and sentences, justice has been brought to the forefront. The sentence should be given so that other people are deterred from committing the crime. However, the core idea is to provide justice to every individual. The significant change is that today the soul of the law system is Indian. We have replaced sentence with justice, bringing in justice-centric law that complements basic Indian values of justice. There are roughly three legal systems in the world. Criminal laws are Latin and Irish. We also have the Indian justice system. We have been influenced by the Irish legal system until now.

All we get today is Tareekh pe Tareekh…what about judgments?

 Justice is truly served when it is delivered on time. There was no provision for timely justice in the 150-year-old laws. We have made two provisions in the new laws to ensure justice is delivered on time. First, we have extensively utilised modern technology to simplify the process of justice. Second, we have set time limits for all three levels - police investigation, prosecution (lawyers), and judges in 35 sections. Now, an investigation cannot be prolonged beyond 180 days. After the final charge-sheet, you must acknowledge it within a certain number of days and start the trial within another set time-frame. After keeping the judgement reserved, you must pronounce the verdict within 45 days. With the help of technology and legal provisions, justice will now be delivered on time. The most significant aspect is that, once fully implemented, these laws will be the most modern and technologically advanced in the world.

Sometimes officers avoid going to courts as they are busy with their official duties. This leads to delay in several cases. How are you bringing in technology to improve this?

 We have framed new laws, considering the technological developments in the next hundred years. Currently, if an officer has to come to court, he has to sit there from morning till evening. It cannot be said whether his/her name will be called, or when he/she will get the next date. Scientists don't like the atmosphere in the court, doctors performing postmortems do not like it, bank officers do not like it either. So, they avoid going there, and the trial keeps getting postponed, leading to new dates for hearings. Now, we have decided that in every prosecution a computer will be recognised and testimony will be obtained through it. That is, online testimony will be allowed. Prisoners won't be brought to the court. Online hearings will take place from the jail.

When did you start working on the new penal code? How was the team formed?

 We have been working since August 2019. As soon as the abrogation of Article 370 was over, we started working on this. The team kept changing, but we have had several consultations on this. I had written letters to all chief justices, judges, magistrates police officers, MPs, chief ministers and legislators. We got thousands of suggestions. Every suggestion was vetted and discussed. I held 158 meetings myself. I have records of those meetings, who I met, for ho many hours, all of it.

News Alert! Had the honor of sitting down with the Home Minister of India, Mr. Amit Shah, for an exclusive interview.

Stay tuned and watch this space for an insightful conversation that you won't want to miss. Coming soon! @AmitShah#ExclusiveInterview#AmitShah#HomeMinister… pic.twitter.com/bZEVPpUPYP

— Rishi Darda (@rishidarda) February 5, 2024

How many of the suggestions you sought from the MPs were implemented?

A lot of thought has gone into the law. The law underwent detailed examination and analysis in the cabinet. We also kept receiving valuable guidance from Prime Minister Narendra Modi ji. Still, the law was not passed without due consideration. I also referred it to the Standing Committee of the Home Ministry, where MPs from all parties engaged in discussions for one and a half months. During these deliberations, a total of 660 changes were suggested. Out of these, I accepted 658 changes, leading to the finalisation of the law. This endeavour represents a significant and unprecedented effort in the post-independence India to enact legislation on such a large scale. Previously, police officers had to go to court for years to give testimony. Now, not the officer who filed the case but the one who is on duty during the hearing can provide testimony by studying the file. If required, the court can record the officer's testimony online.
 

Read more: Who Do They Have Against PM Narendra Modi

But then, why are your predecessors and current opposition parties calling these laws copy-paste?

The ruling party cannot expect praise from the Opposition over the laws it brings. They have not even read the laws carefully. Let me tell you a small incident that happened a few years ago in our country. We introduced a law that stated if a cheque gets returned, there will be a six-month sentence. It has been ten years since the law was enacted, but decisions are not made even after five years because bank officials do not show up during the hearings. Now, every bank will have a computer for online hearings. The court will ask why the cheque was returned? Is it a technical issue or is there not enough money in the account? The bank official will say there was not enough money in the account. So, the court will say the case is closed, and there will be a six-month sentence.

Is this provision also in the same law?

No, we have in general implemented the provision for online testimony. In economic offences, charge-sheets of 1.5 lakh pages are filed. There are 30 accused, investigative agencies, lawyers, and judges involved. So, making copies of 1.5 lakh pages becomes a cumbersome task. Now, you just need to take a pen drive. We have included pen drive in the definition of document. Now, the police won't have to go to the accused person's home to serve summons. You can send summons via SMS or email to the accused person's phone. We have also made provisions to check whether the recipient has opened the SMS or not. In this way, we have modernised the new laws with various provisions. Therefore, our criminal justice system will be the most modern in the world.

 If a specific time limit is assigned to the police, lawyers, and judges, will it not put pressure on them?

 I do not agree with this argument. If you conduct a hearing and then sit down to write the decision 45 days later, what will be remembered?

There will be several cases, not just one. How will they manage?

Write the judgement of one case, write it during the proceedings in the court, we have no objection. Deliver the judgment. You cannot keep the verdict pending.

But it will take time to write the verdict, won't it?

45 days is a lot of time.

Many times, lawyers seek adjournments; how will that be dealt with?

We have made a provision to stop this as well. After a certain limit, you will not get an adjournment.

The new laws focus a lot on children and women. Tell us more about it?

 The government has given priority to children and women. The punishment for gang rape now includes death penalty and life imprisonment, meaning staying in jail until the last breath. The 14-year sentence is no longer applicable. The most crucial in this is the statement of the victim, which was used to be written by hand. What is the victim saying? What is being written? Who is writing it? Nobody knew that. Now, the recording of the victim's statement has become mandatory. Whatever the victim says will now be recorded. Medical tests were not conducted due to reluctance of authorities involved but we have now made medical tests mandatory.

It will take time to provide this entire infrastructure because the facility of recording inside all police stations will be necessary...Recording here means recording of any type in electronic format.

What about the infrastructure that will be required for connecting law system to technology?

A: We have been working on it for the past five years. Today, 99.9 per cent of the country's police stations are online. They operate on the same software. They function in Indian languages, and they have the provision for video conferencing. I don't believe there is any police station or hospital which cannot record things and transfer them to server. We have worked extensively on modernising the system over the past five years.

You can fix accountability of the police in Union Territories, but what about the states?

A: After our announcement, the system will be implemented in all states. This is a subject of both the Centre and state governments.

Many times, state governments exert pressure on the police. It could happen in not few but many cases?

 We have made reports of Forensic Science Laboratory (FSL) mandatory in sentences of 7 years and above. Now, your fingerprints are available. Then, how can pressure be exerted? Tell me. The police do not take fingerprints, and the FSL report has to be submitted directly to the court. A copy is to be sent to the police. Many people ask where is the manpower for so many forensic tasks. That is why we have already established the Forensic Science University in the year 2020 in Karnataka and also in Maharashtra. Nine more are being set up in the country. Now, 30,000 to 35,000 graduates will be produced every year. We have developed a new system in place of the laboratory. We will provide a mobile forensic van in every district. We will provide one, and the state will provide another. The mobile forensic van will reach any crime scene in twenty minutes. Even the analysis of the available NCRB data shows that the work can be managed with just one van, still we are providing two. This will take our conviction rate to above 90 per cent. Before all this, we have made a lot of data, available online. The NAFIS software has fingerprints of more than one crore criminals.

But many gangsters are now operating from inside the jail. Are they one step ahead? What do you feel?

Modernisation of jails is underway, including provisions for specific types of jammers. Almost every jail will be equipped with jammers within two years.


 There are many people in Indian jails who do not get bail. They are poor. Is there any provision for them?

 A significant provision has been made. For a first-time offender, as soon as 33 per cent of his/her sentence is completed, there is no need for him/her to go to the court. If he or she is a second-time offender and 50 per cent of the sentence is completed, they may be eligible for bail. Apart from this, for those going to jail for many small offences, provisions like cleanliness, voluntary work have been made in place of jail sentence. This will also reduce the number of inmates in jails.

But it is also said that this will dilute the power of judges. Is this correct?

For a crime that is not proven, you have already spent 50 per cent of the punishment in jail. Then why the trial? Do you have to stay in jail without a trial? This needs to be justifiable in the form of justice in society.

 You have brought such a significant change in all three laws but how much time will it take to implement all the changes? Will it take five more years?

 That depends on the mindset. Some people accept the changes from the next day. It will gradually happen. One should not make a new beginning thinking about it. How can a law that is 150 years old work now? It had become irrelevant. We have made many new beginnings in it. Till today, there was no definition of terrorism in the country.

What mention has been made about the organised crime in the new laws?

Until now, there was no definition of the organised crime. It ran on 120B only. The definition of conspiracy was so detailed that criminals operating in different states could not be caught. For the first time, focus is on ending gangs and syndicates. Syndicates that force children to beg, women traffickers, drug dealers, all will come under the category of the organised crimes.

Similarly, until now, there has been no official definition of mob lynching. Many people questioned how mob lynching could be brought within our legal framework. Various NGOs, often critical of the Bharatiya Janata Party, failed to conduct any comprehensive studies on this issue. The majority of deaths resulting from lynching occur among thieves. In small villages, when a thief is apprehended, the entire community joins forces to execute the criminal. After that, cases of witch-hunting emerge. In rural areas, women are accused of being witches and are brutally stoned to death. Next, we have cases involving lovers. Men are frequently targeted, but women are also victims in many instances. Finally, persons from all religious backgrounds, including Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, fall victim to lynching. However, when we propose legislation against lynching, these critics remain silent, unwilling to acknowledge our efforts. We have introduced numerous groundbreaking measures, including putting an end to the long-standing criticism of sedition laws that impinge upon individual freedom of speech.

 It was related to freedom of expression. Because of it, right from Tilak Maharaj to Mahatma Gandhi and Sardar Patel all went to jail...

But if a leader speaks even a little bit against someone, she/he goes to jail?

Now, it will not be possible. That provision has been removed.

If a person uploads a post against any leader on Facebook or social media, action is taken against him/her. Is there any provision related to this?

This is a different matter.

What are the consequences if someone uses offensive language?

 In such a scenario, a defamation case will be filed, which will be treated as a civil case. A notice will be issued to you, and you will be required to appear in court and provide a response.

Can you throw light on the groundwork you have done to make the laws?

Extensive efforts have been put in. If anyone reads in detail, s/he will understand that the things which are exploited by many criminals have been removed. For example, the biggest corruption happens when, in the case of a poor person, the police, sometimes the 'Judge Sahib' and the lawyer, all three together end the case and the culprit is acquitted. It is the police who have to appeal against the acquittal, but this right has now been taken away from them. Now, the Director of Prosecution related to the judicial field will decide on the appeal.

Has any effort been made to simplify the police work and make the path to justice easier for the general public?

You must have observed that there are numerous bicycles stacked at any police station which are confiscated items that cannot be removed until the case is resolved. Seized narcotics cannot be removed. Now, we have made it clear that if chemicals or counterfeit currency are seized, the State can internally dispose them of through a forensic report, while vehicles can be documented through photography and videography. The police stations can be made free of these items.

Have you made any provision to provide relief to people who are victims of crime?

Generally, when someone files a complaint at the police station, it is accepted and kept with the police. It does not get converted into a First Information Report. However, we have implemented a new policy that requires the conversion of complaints into FIRs within seven days or police will have to reject them. Furthermore, the report on the case must be provided within 90 days. The information about the progress of the case must be given online which will enable you to get information about the FIR. This includes updates on the court proceedings and any developments related to the case. Additionally, regular communication through email or SMS is required every 15 days. This ensures that the victim or their relatives are aware of the status of their case. Previously, there were instances where the police would withdraw cases without the victim's involvement, leaving them unaware of the outcome. To address this, we have established a system where the victim's consent is necessary before a case can be withdrawn.

Moreover, there used to be instances where the police would arrest many persons without proper justification or explanation. This often led to appeals in the court. When the court issued notice to the police, they would say suspects are in their custody. To rectify this, we have mandated the maintenance of registers in every police station. These registers must include the number of persons in custody on a given day. Additionally, persons taken into custody must be presented before the court within 24 hours. The police must seek custody from the court and must explain if the law is seized of the matter or the suspect is in custody. Till you do not take the person to the court, you must mention his/her detention in the register.

In the new law, police custody has been increased from 15 to 60 days. Why so?

The police custody limit has been retained at 15 days. Police can seek to extend it to 60 days any time. For example, in Tamil Nadu one suspect was arrested. He experienced a sudden heart attack. He was caught while jogging. Following the heart attack, he got admitted to his own hospital and obtained a certificate for a 15-day rest period. Previously, it was not possible to conduct an inquiry in such cases. Now, after the initial 15-day recovery period, we will still have 15 days in hand. We have not extended the period of detention but increased the time period till which we can seek custody of the suspect.

Apart from this, take a case where the police arrest someone, complete his interrogation and send him to jail within ten days, that is send him to judicial custody. Later, if another suspect is found, he may confess to his involvement so both of them would have to be brought face to face. This can be done at a later time. There are still 5 days left of the 15 days. This has been done to ensure justice. No one will be harassed in this. Police are not authorised to detain the individual for a period exceeding fifteen days.

Many people are saying this will impact personal freedom.

If we extend the duration, make it 16 days, what will happen? We have authorised the police to take breakup within 15 days.

A few days ago, truck drivers staged protests in numerous states, including Karnataka. The protests were organised against the penalties and fines in hit-and-run cases. Subsequently, the government intervened in the matter?

The entire situation unfolded as a result of a misunderstanding. There exists a provision within the law that stipulates if a person fails to report a hit-and-run incident to the police via the designated number 108 and instead flees the scene and subsequently gets captured on camera, s/he will face both punishment and fine. Presently, a staggering 70 per cent of fatalities in accident cases are attributed to excessive bleeding, primarily due to the delay in transporting the injured to the hospital. In our country today, the system is designed in such a way that if you dial 108, help will arrive within 10-15 minutes, at the very least, when on the highway. I say do not park your vehicle at the site of the accident, as the local villagers may resort to violence. Instead, park your vehicle at a safe distance and promptly contact 108. Those who fail to report within thirty minutes will only be punished. Nevertheless, we have decided to engage in discussions with truck drivers, as we firmly believe that we can successfully persuade them to comply with the necessary protocols.

What are the provisions for judges in the Criminal Justice Law?

I will provide specifics of the provisions for judges in the Criminal Justice Law. Once the application is received, the charges must be framed within a specific time-frame. Following the framing of the charge, the trial must commence within 30 days. After a certain limit, you cannot extend dates. After writing the judgment and reserving the arguments, the judgment must be delivered within 45 days. Additionally, it is not permissible to entertain any acquittal applications after 60 days of framing charges. A judge can do it as a bunch of applications but cannot entertain one application after another. There are several other provisions similar to these.

Will we ever get gang lords like Dawood Ibrahim who are operating from abroad? How do we plan to tackle them?

 Trial in absentia is a new law. Let me tell you that Dawood Ibrahim is accused in the Mumbai bomb blasts, we all know. However, he has run away so the trial cannot be conducted. This used to happen earlier but will not happen now. The court will appoint a lawyer, there will be a trial and he will also be punished. If he wants to appeal, he will personally come to court and appeal. When convicted, his extradition to India becomes very easy as per international law. Right now, he is an accused, but after the punishment is decided, another country will have to extradite him. Now, trials will start against those who have fled after committing major crimes, or who have committed anti-national activities.